tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post2563293627721987230..comments2023-11-05T02:57:06.922-05:00Comments on The Vault of Horror: The VOH Roundtable: Does Horror Ever Go Too Far?B-Solhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10717121313061173603noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-48040346294507715762010-10-09T02:33:12.481-04:002010-10-09T02:33:12.481-04:00Thank you, Kels darling, and I couldn't agree ...Thank you, Kels darling, and I couldn't agree more! Nice to see not all "kids your age" are so desensitized. It's important to retain our humanity...B-Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10717121313061173603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-68561997838002425042010-10-08T21:49:15.421-04:002010-10-08T21:49:15.421-04:00I am actually proud to say that yes, horror absolu...I am actually proud to say that yes, horror absolutely goes too far in some examples for me. I'd explain further but B-Sol, my dear, you've done the job for me.<br /><br />Why am I proud of this? Because it means I'm still human. I may have morbid fascinations (which totally contradict the fact that I'm not desensitized to the level others kids my age are) but that doesn't mean I can take ANYTHING.<br /><br />I like sex, for example. Hell, don't we all? And sex in movies is pretty awesome and enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I want to see two characters suddenly turn into hollow monkies that begin a giant porn-off in the middle of the film. If that makes sense. Like with horror and shock, sex can be beautiful and meaningful and powerful and even scary. I am in agreement that art is art because it is teaching us something about ourselves.<br /><br />Interesting post!Kelshttp://www.applecocaine.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-92228624819398719012010-07-08T00:04:23.646-04:002010-07-08T00:04:23.646-04:00Never too late to join in! Yes, I think Ray was ta...Never too late to join in! Yes, I think Ray was talking about Cannibal Holocaust--although Cannibal Apocalypse is pretty heinous too. John Saxon reportedly walked off set once or twice due to being morally disgusted by what was being filmed.B-Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10717121313061173603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-86634877400973524382010-07-04T23:41:33.074-04:002010-07-04T23:41:33.074-04:00RayRay: Cannibal Apocalypse? Are you sure you did...RayRay: Cannibal Apocalypse? Are you sure you didn't mean Cannibal Holocaust? Apocalypse had gore few and far between as well as not be of the same level as say Hostel or Saw III. Plus, you have John Saxon and John Morghen as the two leads.<br /><br />ps - Sorry for joining late in the topic...Mackenzie Lambertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-39943230125012730822009-06-15T23:31:28.266-04:002009-06-15T23:31:28.266-04:00Granted, this is a completely subjective topic. Bu...Granted, this is a completely subjective topic. But it still provides a lot of food for thought. I'm glad it has inspired a lot of folks to make some very carefully thought out comments here.B-Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10717121313061173603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-6303960065822330612009-06-15T18:27:43.936-04:002009-06-15T18:27:43.936-04:00The reason I won't see Hostel is because of th...The reason I won't see Hostel is because of the snuff film type tortures. Even killers than seem to be mindless such as Jason and Freddie have some sort of motivation. But torture for torture's sake does not make for good viewing pleasure.KT Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15958121742156171756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-13287094871287337382009-06-15T17:20:35.053-04:002009-06-15T17:20:35.053-04:00Jesus, what a bunch of fucking pansies! I'd li...Jesus, what a bunch of fucking pansies! I'd like to hang you all up by a hook!!! Just kidding, of course.<br /><br />Some good arguments here, actually. I can't see myself picking a side.<br /><br />Is HOSTEL an excuse for scenes of torture? It's more than that. Every graphic horror film is structured around kills. The zenith of horror is death afterall. A musical is structured around songs and usually has an equally flimsy, convoluted plot. That's because the genre elements (kills, songs) do not occur as naturally as they do in real scenarios, so they need to be contrived to some extent in order to exist.<br /><br />For me, HOSTEL built to the kills. There weren't a lot in the first 45 minutes. We get a good Euro vibe and characters who are certainly better developed than the carrion in a FRIDAY movie.<br /><br />Horror goes too far for some, not far enough for others.<br /><br />Horror should be about cracking boundaries and pushing us into uncomfortable positions. If it doesn't have the latitude to do that, it's a failed genre.<br /><br />Personally, I don't agree with killing animals for entertainment or to make a point, but I admire CANNIBAL HOLOCAUST a great deal. I respect the "document" that is CH for all its morally questionable aspects, and its "going too far" is part of its charm .<br /><br />The horror of IN A GLASS CAGE may be too much for some because it involves the torture and slow death of children. To me it's about point of view. If the film had condoned child torture, its point of view probably would have been considered "going too far" in a particular direction. But whether horror goes too far is entirely subjective.<br /><br />I don't like the setting of limits of any kind with horror. Not surprisingly, the pushing of very uncomfortable boundaries (as in IN A GLASS CAGE, for instance) usually results in low interest in the product, so the market tends to set the boundaries.<br /><br />"Goes Too Far" ought not be a position to defend with horror. It ought to be a goal. How it achieves that goal is what makes horror interesting.Phantom of Pulphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684169251989469824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-17661562500142396562009-06-15T15:40:33.073-04:002009-06-15T15:40:33.073-04:00Much as it might put me on the outs with the horro...Much as it might put me on the outs with the horror folks whose opinions I respect, I think I'm going to jump to the defense of HOSTEL here. I don't agree that Roth's sole purpose was to show graphic depictions of sexualized violence for the purposes of titillation. He DOES show graphic depictions of sexualized violence, no doubt, but I don't think he is often given the credit I feel the movie deserves for having a reason for doing it, which I read as the logical, horrible progression of the commodification of human beings.<br /><br />It all comes down for me to a pair of parallel scenes from early and late in the movie. In the early one, the clearly odious main characters are in the brothel in Amsterdam, having "bought" their less odious compadre a woman for the evening. The shy guy walks down a long, shadowed corridor that's lined with closed or half-open doors. Through the partially open ones we hear moans, groans, and sexual screams, and see strange shadows coming from inside. At the end of the hall, a closed door, where his woman awaits.<br /><br />Later in the movie, when one of the odious guys is being dragged down a hallway to his room in the Hostel, it's pretty much EXACTLY the same scene. Long corridor, lined with doors, moans and groans and screams, only this time with a different context. However, the visuals, right down to the closed door at the end of the hall, are so similar, it's obvious that Roth as filmmaker is drawing a visual parallel. <br /><br />The point for me is that the human bodies as sexual products to be traded shown early on is a slippery slope away from the human beings as products to be disposed of in violent ways. Once you reduce human life to something to be bought and sold, it only makes sense that this is where you wind up--and the horror is, you could find yourself on the supply rather than demand side.<br /><br />Now we can go back and forth on Roth's skill or lack of it as a filmmaker (personally I like what he's done, but I know loads and loads of folks don't feel the same), or how his public persona, whether real or affected, turns people off his films (it does, imo); but I don't think it's fair to say what he did in Hostel he did pointlessly. He could have made the same point differently, of course--more subtly, with more likable characters (though I think their idiocy and cluelessness is part of the point, part of what gets them in trouble--these are the guys who WOULD treat people as product), or with less seeming glee in the mechanics of bodily destruction--but that's something that from a cinematic point of view boils down to a filmmaker's vision and an audience's taste--or lack thereof. Doesn't it?<br /><br />Anyway, fwiw I *do* think horror movies/gore flicks can go to far for me personally--I can't really see much point in cannibal movies for instance, for many of the reasons listed above--but I also believe that pushing boundaries is something art always does (surrealism, dadaism, punk rock, etc. etc.), or should. If it's done in a way that doesn't achieve anything new or lasting, it'll go away. But the impetus, I think, is worthy.<br /><br />My comment verification is "relike"--an adjective to describe the experience of rewatching something you hated only to find it's not that bad. ;)The Vicar of VHShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06832137990485130735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-65039638385693303092009-06-15T14:45:57.862-04:002009-06-15T14:45:57.862-04:00Totally agree on the point of learning from the pa...Totally agree on the point of learning from the past and not turning a blind eye, I think it kind of goes without saying. But in terms of choosing a mind numbing horror movie (no matter how good or bad) vs. viewing images of something gnarly and horrific that actually happened, I'd choose the former rather than the later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-83002072878741568262009-06-15T14:23:29.469-04:002009-06-15T14:23:29.469-04:00BJ-C: The words might sound like the $5 variety, b...BJ-C: The words might sound like the $5 variety, but talk is cheap.<br /><br />B-Sol: It was the early 80's, and we needed the money.<br /><br />Kate: Censorship bad. Not on my watch.<br /><br />Terror: No reins for horror; in the end it is a matter of taste. I always thought Se7en was an awesome movie, I just didn't want to watch it again for a few years. But everyone should become familiar with the real horrors on this planet. Not to wax cheese-mongerly, but to fail to learn the lessons of the past will only doom one to repeat the class. And it is not graded on a curve.RayRayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08718037136482754673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-29968514622475198762009-06-15T13:13:13.683-04:002009-06-15T13:13:13.683-04:00I am a little conflicted here. Whereas I do feel a...I am a little conflicted here. Whereas I do feel a film like Hostel is completely pointless, I did find a few redeeming qualities. Namely, who doesn't like seeing a bunch of douchey teenagers getting waxed? Going too far? I'm not entirely sure, but Ray and B-Sol do make some valid points of a film at least needing to have methods to its madness. But I think it had a lot of other problems going for it which Kate so accurately described.<br /><br />So on the flip side, take a film like Inside. Inherently, some may think it does go too far (c-section by way of scissors, egad!) but it tempers my fetal position on the couch self by actually having a story and a sound reasoning to its unrelenting brutality. <br /><br />So in all, I guess I would say that no, a horror movie can't go too far. And if it does, chances are you won't see it again but you will say to yourself that you saw it, and for better or worse, it was one of the most shocking and deplorable movies you've ever seen. May not be something that you throw on for a nice relaxing Sunday afternoon. But its movies of this ilk, that make horror movies what they are. No reigns should ever be placed on them. <br /><br />I do disagree with one thing Ray said, you should not rent Faces of Death or scan the interwebs for gnarly pictures in place of watching a film like Hostel. The difference? We know the onscreen violence isn't real.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-36084596695613386022009-06-15T12:07:05.179-04:002009-06-15T12:07:05.179-04:00Thanks, Kate. I think I can speak for all of us wh...Thanks, Kate. I think I can speak for all of us when I say that we are not advocating censorship. Even if I personally might deem a movie to have crossed the line, that gives me no right to call for it to be withdrawn, edited or anything like that. That's what free speech is all about. Just because I may be offended doesn't mean others don't have the right to express themselves.B-Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10717121313061173603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-69257716255924092942009-06-15T08:40:54.713-04:002009-06-15T08:40:54.713-04:00Wow--lots of food for thought here on an interesti...Wow--lots of food for thought here on an interesting topic! Each of you has hit on a key element of the issue (the "personal barometer" of B-Sol, the freedom of the filmmaker to go to extreme measures as highlighted by BJ-C, and RayRay's arguments as to the use of graphic violence to convey a message), but I'm kind of torn on the use of the terminology "too far," as it carries the spectre of censorship with it. If a film is deemed, by collective opinion, to have gone further than the bounds of taste (?), what is its ultimate fate? <br /><br />I think my feelings on the topic come closest to BJ-C's--graphic imagery isn't necessarily the thing that should make a film objectionable. Like B-Sol and RayRay, I disliked "Hostel," due to its flimsy script, odious characters, flat acting and single-note propulsion. I think it's less an issue of sexualized violence than it is of poor filmmaking--it's the cinematic equivalent of a kick to the nuts: direct and unpleasant, and ultimately proving to have very little point once the seeing of stars wears off (ed note: I do not possess nuts, but I have seen enough footage of kicks to the nuts to take the unpleasant sensation to be a tacit scientific fact).<br /><br />A great post on thought-provoking stuff, sirs and madam!Tenebrous Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032561062849200919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-19227136494391960992009-06-15T02:15:47.687-04:002009-06-15T02:15:47.687-04:00As well as your five-dollar haircut! Way to go, Mr...As well as your five-dollar haircut! Way to go, Mrs. Mollica!B-Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10717121313061173603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8470604276410220159.post-843282809066722972009-06-15T02:10:03.546-04:002009-06-15T02:10:03.546-04:00damn you Ray and your 5 dollar words.damn you Ray and your 5 dollar words.BJ Colangelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03794586844789183140noreply@blogger.com